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## PAP 0021312

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PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 5:58:38 PM
louise

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From: South Africa
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I am having a problem with puzzle 0021312 I can get so far and no further - can anyone help with the next filled square - it's driving me NUTS!
Thanx
Louise
RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 8:24:24 PM
psychlogic

Posts: 43
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From: United States
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I hate solving these by trial and error but it seems to be the only way for this puzzle. If you test the 5 in the second row you'll find you quickly get contradictions in all positions except when it is placed in columns 9-13 counting from the left. After that it's easy.

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 8:32:28 PM
Cyclone

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Joined: 1/20/2004
From: Afghanistan
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You forgot to put the * next to your 9-block, for one thing.

That aside, though, I checked your logic so far; it all checks out to me. You might have to take an educated guess. I had an unmarked block of 8 in a puzzle once, and noted a block of eight empty squares I used to test it; going slightly further, it proved not to work. I solved the puzzle easily from this point after filling in the partial, and working from there.

As for this one...there is nothing that obvious. Did you check the numbers in the puzzle for input error? I occasionally leave out a number, fix it, then I can solve easily (esp. for FAPs).

EDIT: found something besides T&E. Column V is the one to examine; the single square marked in the middle cannot go up. The reason is the 3 1 2 order; if the three goes down two (rows 3-5), row 6 is false. But if it goes up (1-3), the only ways the 1 can be satisfied is by filling row 5 and making the 2 take rows 7-8, or by treating row 7 as the 1. Both still leave row 6 false, so you can asterisk that square. Since 2 is the next number to satisfy for the row in question, you can also star the square to the left. This allows you to fill in two square concerning the 4 in that row, and you can start marking out other false squares from those columns. See how it goes from there; if you're still stuck, work T&E as suggested.

EDIT 2: Solved the puzzle without any further difficulty. Nice image of mother and baby out for a walk.

Cyclone

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 9:59:18 PM
davehutch

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Joined: 5/18/2002
From: United States
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There is a much easier continuance with no guess work. The top four in the second column from the right cannot go in the first three squares as this would cause the 5 at the top of the third column to be a three instead of a five as the five would be cut off when the 4 runs into the 1 in the fourth row. This is one of the easier uses of the edge technique.

It is very important to use the edge technique as it often helps you continue without guessing. For more info on the edge technique, go to
http://www.conceptistech.com/puzzlefans/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15

It basically involves analyzing rows and crossing columns or vice versa at the same time, but needs no guessing. It is just an advanced logical skill.

lol,

Dave

Edit: Relooking at your scan, you do have a mistake at this point, i.e, something you filled in that could be false later. In the 5th column the third and eighth squares should both be open at this point. It turns out that you are right, but these markings could have led to an error.

p.s. How do you use Excel to do the puzzles? Does it have a fill square option? Appleworks, which I use to read Excel files, doesn't.

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 10:59:51 PM
psychlogic

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Hi Dave,

I guess what I was calling "trial and error" was really using your edge technique to determine that there was only one place where the 5 in the second row could go.

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/17/2004 11:23:21 PM
davehutch

Posts: 462
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: United States
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Hi Psychologic,

I agree you can knock off the last four squares of the second row using the edge technique and the 5, but I can't see the reasoning for more than that at this point. Perhaps I can't think enough levels deep (I never was a great chess player for this reason.); however, this also is sufficient to finish the puzzle.

lol,

Dave

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/18/2004 1:02:00 AM
psychlogic

Posts: 43
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From: United States
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Dave,

I don't know if this is your edge technique or just doing trial and error in my head. You tell me. I'm using the Excel chart column and row designations.

I can easily get you two more empty spaces to the left. If the right-most fill on the 5 ends at 7ac or 7ab then the spaces above them must be X'd (Because of the 1's). This forces a few filled squares in the top row 4. It leads to the 2's in column w or x being blocked by the X's to the left of the five.

My brain is starting to hurt so I'll stop with those. So, is this edge theory or mental T&E.

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/18/2004 6:11:00 AM
Cyclone

Posts: 1877
Joined: 1/20/2004
From: Afghanistan
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I was working the edges, myself, but it seems the attempts I made did not work for anything. I guess I didn't try that particular 5. Still, logic in the column under "V" indicated enough false squares to help me finish the puzzle...and proved everything correct prior to my jumping into it.

As for filling...I just copied and pasted. I know Excel, but filling squares...I would think setting background color, mebbe?

Cyclone

RE: PAP 0021312 - 3/18/2004 1:33:08 PM
louise

Posts: 26
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: South Africa
Status: offline
Hi Guys,
Thanks very much - with your combined help I finished it.

Dave, with regards the fifth column, rows 3 & 8, my reasoning was as follows:- If you start the 2 from R3 in C5, it incorporates the 5 in the fourth column and pushes the 5 in the third column down into row 8. It cannot go into row 8 because there will not be room for the 2 in row 8 - only one block will be left vacant after the 5 in column 4 is dotted off. WHEW!

I don't actually use Excel to solve the puzzles - I'm a pencil and paper girl but there is a "fill colour" option in Excel - I haven't figured out a way to convert the puzzle files into Excel format so the numbers have to be typed in - too laborious for me.

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